Heide Knights, Git Out!
Oct. 21, 2015Heide Knights, Git Out!
That’s it!
It happened.
Dark Souls II’s“B Team” finally pissed me off. And of course, by “pissed off” I mean I’m “completely calm.” They did however, make a mistake in my opinion.
So let’s jump all over them yet again (****ing B Team anyway), with a discussion on theHeide Knightsand how someone effed it all to hell.
We’re going to need a little discussion about Knights in general. Not the ones in real life like Sir Sean Connery. I mean, he seems like a cool guy, and maybe there’s some parallels, but…
Alright, let’s talk about Sir Sean Connery.
In legends and in the case of Sir Sean Connery, Knights most often fulfill one or more key roles for their homeland or lord. Such as…
Think of the Crusades, where King Richard (played by Sir Sean Connery alongside Kevin Costner at his best, which is still kinda bad) and his group of knights decided that religious war was pretty cool and went out to kill people. Or, really any war or battle in which knights were period correct. That’s what they did and why most of us know and love the image of an armor clad gentleman, swinging steel at someone’s face.
In this context, we think of larger groups of knights banding together for wholesale destruction and carnage. Neat.
In neither version ofDark Souls IIis this an accurate representation of what the Heide Knights are up to. There’s no large scale group to be seen, and Heide Knights don’t appear to choose sides readily. While we can target them as an enemy, by default they’re passive toward everyone.
Just like Sir Sean Connery seeks the independence of Scotland, a common image of The Knight is one of questing. Like for the Holy Grail, which was needed to save Sir Sean Connery’s life when Nazis shot him. There, Sir Sean Connery’s son (played by Harrison Ford, who has quested in space and definitely shot first), meets a Knight whose reaaaaaally long life was dedicated to finding and protecting the Grail.
This is a common theme of the questing Knight. To find something important and bring it back and/or protect it from the less virtuous.
This actually fits the original version ofDark Souls IIexceedingly well. Let’s start with the re-releaseScholar of the First Sinthough, because; to hell with which order makes sense.
In theScholar of the First Sinversion of the game, the Heide Knights are found inHeide’s Tower of Flame. This suggests they’re “home” or at least near what’s left of it. Questing at home is stupid. No one does that s***. If that’s a quest, then knight me the heck up next time I valiantly retrieve some chips from the kitchen.
“For Valorous Removal of Leaves, I award you our highest honor. A glass of water.”
But originally, the Heide Knights were found scattered across Drangleic. The only place they’re NOT found is at home. Ok, they’re actually NOT found in lots of places, but the main point is they’re not home. As if they were questing perhaps. Further to this point, we can surmise they’ve hollowed to a great extent as we can target them by default. They are “enemies” by design. However, their complacency suggests that they’re waiting for a greater purpose which seems kinda noble. Sorta like “I’d totally kill you if I didn’t have something else going on at the moment.” That screams quest to me. They’re the only enemy in which the curse has not yielded to complete mindlessness and animosity.
So then, if we feel that these Knights were #borntoquest, their demeanor and location were pretty much spot on in the original version of the game.
But let’s hold judgment for a second. We have one more role for a Knight to examine. Maybe change was good…
Sorta like the military role, but fighting at home to protect instead. Like James Bond (the Sir Sean Connery one) protects the world from villains. Or like Sir Sean Connery (played by Sean Connery) would probably punch you in the neck for talking smack about Scotland. And that dude is a Knight, so that punch would probably hurt.
In the original release, this role is obviously crap. Not only are the Heide Knights not home to defend it, they don’t defend jack all except for themselves. You can slaughter the entire game ten times over and they won’t budge to defend any of it. So maybe that’s why they moved them back to the tower inScholar of the First Sin.
But in context, that’s actually pretty stupid.
Because the fact is, they STILL don’t defend squat.
Me: “Hey guy, what’s up?” as I invade their home and start destroying things willy nilly
Heide Knight: …
Me: “So uh, me breaking this s*** and destroying your home’s giant armor guard things is cool then?”
Heide Knight: …
Smashing continues
The main thing to note here is that Willy Nilly is older now and prefers the more dignified “William Nilly.” His friends can call him “Bill.” But perhaps more important to this conversation, is that we can run in and trash the joint and they don’t even lift their head to see what’s going on. They could not care less about what we’re up to in their home.
Buuuuuut Skare…I read in the wiki that they start roaming around after you kill theDragonrider. Doesn’t that mean they defend their home after you’ve proven yourself to be a threat?
I suppose. It also means they’re idiots.
First off, those giant automatons you need to wreck to get there don’t grow on trees. I’m no tree expert, but I dare you to find me a “Golem Tree.” Note that I once took second place in a timber and lumber identification contest, so I’m no tree n00b either (there were three participants so I beat somebody). Back to the game, you’ve already shown you’re a threat, like right in front of their face and are hell bent on jacking up Heide’s Tower. The time to act is about five seconds after you get there.
Second, based on HP/damage,/yadda yadda, the Dragonrider is intended to be a tougher foe than a Heide Knight. So they decide to be hostile after you’ve shown you can murder their stronger cousin? That’s a solid decision right there.
“Ha ha! The Dragonrider stood no chance. But I, a valiant Heide Knight will stop yoEEEAAAaaaaaeeeeeaargghhhhh!I’ve been stabbed to death.”
Third, if killing the Dragonrider triggers animosity it should mean there’s some allegiance to him. So uh, why not try to stop us BEFORE the fight. If the Dragonrider is the default commander or something there, it’s pretty poor form to let us stroll in and start swinging. They’re not defending the Rider, they’re throwing a tantrum after he’s dead. Heide Knights: The Holy Order of Spite. Real nice Code of Chivalry there guys.
“I mean, we like the Dragonrider. He’s a good guy. His wife made us scarves once. Really helped cut down on the chain mail chafing. We just don’t like him enough to care untilafterhe’s been murdered.”
Fourth, by the time they decide to “protect” jack, it’s too late. After you kill the Dragonrider there’s a bonfire and a short jaunt to the Wharf. I did an extensive survey (aka “walking”) on how many Heide Knights there are between the Dragonrider and the Wharf. There’s zero. They let me in their home without a challenge. They let me approach the Dragonrider to fight. They all wake up and become hostile when he’s dead. But every single one of them is behind me. After murdering and looting my way through their home, they let me walk out untouched. I would take an attack hamster over these guys 10 times out of 10.
Here’s a sub theory to maybe explain their dormancy. In Arthurian legends, it’s often maintained that King Arthur is not dead. He’s merely resting in a convenient coma, possibly with some of his crew. He’s supposed to arise when needed. He’d probably be a little surprised to see an Uzi pointed at his face if he woke up now, but maybe he could offer sound political advice. I dunno. He’d still be useful I guess if he woke up is the gist of the legend. Anyway, I suppose one could argue that inScholar, maybe they’re dormant and killing the Dragonrider forces them out of slumber as it’s a confirmed attack. However, this is really just a fun thought as many of the same arguments apply. If they’re supposed to wake magically upon being needed, it makes precisely zero sense for them to wake up AFTER I’ve completed my harm. Now I know similar legends often need the villain to actually be villainous before the hero starts waking up/reacting, but see my earlier point about waking up after you’ve killed something stronger than you are. May as well just stay asleep little buddy, ’cause I’m about to wreck you too. And again, if they’re supposed to wake up in the hour of need they failed. I’m on my way out already, remember?
Also, Sir Sean Connery played King Arthur in a pretty terrible movie with Richard Gere. Don’t watch it. If King Arthur was really going to come back when the world needed him, he woulda woke up and started swinging Excalibur around as soon as casting got rolling on that pile. Sir Sean Connery was still pretty good though.
They seemingly had it right the first time. A few disparate Knights from a dying (or long dead with weird time/dimensional travel) order roaming the wilds for: reasons. That actually makes sense. The Questing Knight is a beloved story. Particularly for a kingdom that has a few concerns. Concerns such as a damp basement. InScholarthis was changed to a few centralized Knights defending…nothing.
Ugh…
Heide Knights: “I am from Heide. Submerged near shale. Knight of the Tower and defender of its peoples.”
AshSkare: “Well hello Mister Fancypants. Well, I’ve got news for you pal, you ain’t defendin’ but two things, right now: Jack and s***… and Jack left town.”
Sir Sean Connery was not in that movie. Bruce Campbell should be a Knight.
I meant to close the piece with that last bit. Hard to top a Bruce Campbell reference. However, when I was playing and getting pictures for this article, I had a gift from the gaming gods. I couldn’t NOT add this. Here’s your “new and improved” Knights, doing their Knightly duty.
Dumbass
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Real knights never did much for honor, I’m sure a handful did but most did stuff for money and were pretty terrible people. The idea all knights are honorable and go on quests in nice but from a realistic stand point it’s just as likely that the knights only sit around because the guy who paid them is dead and they only get up to kill you and rob you when they get hungry. Not saying this is a good reason, I’m just pointing out that knights aren’t all the legends make them sound. Personally I prefer to think of knights as honorable warriors but that’s not accurate.
Thanks for the follow up on those points. I’ll come back around to the concept of them doing nothing with any line of thinking. Regardless of what the intent was in having that as the “trigger” for hostility, it’s rendered pointless by the fact that you can walk away with zero Heide Knight repercussions. Note that this isn’t me just addressing your idea of the Tower’s significance dn1nd, it’s also my own idea below about the Tower’s significance. I probably wouldn’t have anywhere near as much cringing about this if there was even one Heide Knight AFTER the bonfire.
I did have one thought but this goes pretty far into me writing the narrative for the developers so, while I think it’s a fun idea and will share it, I don’t think there’s inherently any reality in it.
It’s very easily seen in one of my pics (feature image and me taunting a Knight), but the Tower of Flame is lit. Now early speculation led many to think of it as a lighthouse and perhaps it is/was. I know the area wasn’t always flooded, but it’s likely it WAS on the water before the change. So it could easily have always been a lighthouse.
Other early speculation tied Heide to Flan or other fire deities, but the naming doesn’t necessarily suggest HEIDE is tied to flame. Just the tower.
What I’m getting at is that many signs point to the Tower being significant and possibly even anomalous in that location. So then, return to the idea that it’s still lit.
The only accessible rooms in the tower itself don’t lead me to make too many connections but it’s interesting that there’s no access I can see at all for someone to actually maintain the tower or the beacon.
Long story a little longer, the only idea that would make sense to me is if the Dragonrider is actually a BARRIER for them, not an ally.
If the tower is intended to be a beacon for the Knights, their goal would be to return to it when called upon. The beacon IS lit, meaning they ARE being called upon in this eventuality. However, the Rider is blocking their access and so they rest. Once he’s removed they stop resting.
Now I’ll have to actually go check out the path to Ornstein myself, most likely tonight. But perhaps the two “active” Knights here would be explained in that they seek aid from Team Blue. There’s an elaborate outpost for the Blues there, so it could stand to reason Heide and the Blues are allied naturally. I was unaware a drake was occupying that area, which might further suggest the Dragonrider is preventing aid. I thought of the Beacon hypothesis before knowing there was a drake, but I gotta admit it fits the idea pretty cleanly.
However, I will repeat this is me making a ton of mental jumps and while it’s a fun thought exercise it’s an exceedingly convoluted one that I just don’t have enough evidence to really stand behind.
I’ll take a look with this and other thoughts in mind (and hope everyone else does the same). It’d be awesome if there really was a grand design here, but for now I’m sticking with “they wanted to convey the Knights were guarding ‘home’ and their placement and triggers don’t really support that very well.”
The Ones by Ornstein are Hostile. But the Dragon Rider’s Drake is there, maybe another connection to why they attack after you defeat the Dragon Rider. Possibly hinting that you are meant to Duel the Dragon Rider first and that you are again headed to a sacred Cathedral. The Drake being an encouragement to seek out the Dragon Rider.
If I remember correctly the Heide Knights only become hostile after The Dragon Rider’s defeat. I have Died in the Dragon Rider fight and when I respawned the Knights weren’t Hostile. Also The Tower being above where you Fight the Dragon Rider might have a significance. The Dragon Rider might be the Guardian Barring Entrance to the Tower of Flame and The Heide Knights are bound by honor to allow you to pass and Duel the Dragon Rider. Only once the Duel is over the Heide Knights are no longer bound to let you pass and they become hostile to you being a trespasser.
I’ll Stop myself before I get to Speculation heavy.
I’m just happy to get the sword. I entirely skipped using it in my 2500 hour PS3 play, but learned on Scholar what a great weapon it is. The 3 early-game weapons I continue to use long after I’ve platted are the Heide, the Fire longsword and the Magic Mace.
Could they be drawn to your power level once you’ve acquired the soul of the dragon rider? You can level up quite a bit after you beat him early on.
I agree that they were likely moved due to the complaints that they “should” be there. I just vehemently disagree that they should be there, or if they are there, that they should be doing something Knightly.
Dn1nd, I never thought of the location angle being guarded, but I’d still have the same thought process. If they wanted me out of there or were guarding the tower, they stop me once I neared it or when I started tampering with switches that affected it. Those triggers would make sense.
Something I wouldn’t know since I killed the Rider the first try since he’s a punk…
If you lose to him and come back do they aggro or does he need to die? If they became hostile upon entering then that makes a little more sense.
I also didn’t check out the Ornstein path. If those are hostile ordinarily, then I’d concede that at least those guys are doing their job and it’s pretty sound design. Sadly the rest of the area hurts my brain a little.
Accidentally double posted
I think they moved the heide knights because there were many complaints that there were none in an area named after them.
Although I agree with the article for the most part these heide knights can wreck you when they fight along the old knights.Also the two heide knights, on the left path that goes to Ornstein, are awake and ready to fight without being provoked or having their dragonrider killed.
Nice article Skare.
Here’s how I viewed the Heide Knights in Ps3 version.
The Heide Knights went out on a quest to find a cure for hollowing. There may have been more than just the 3 we encounter, since we find the Heide Knight Iron Mask in The Cathedral of Blue in Heide it can be speculated at least one Heide Knight stated behind and died. With the ones we do encounter, One found himself in the Lost Bastille when he hollowed another found himself in the Forest of Fallen Giant, and the third found himself in the Shrine of Winter. All failed their quest to prevent themselves going hollow. When they hollowed a need to guard something remain, even as Undead the Heide Knights never left their post until provoked.
Now how I viewed Heide Knights in the PS4 version is as follows.
Most of the Heide Knights in SOTFS stayed behind to Guard their home. One set out on a quest to find a cure, this Knight found himself in the Gutter only to be trapped and hollow. The remainder of the Knights remained dutiful and guarded the Tower of Flame. The very tower we proceed into after we defeat the Dragon Rider. My understanding of why the Heide Knights become active isn’t because we merely defeated Someone more powerful than them, but because we desecrated sacred ground by entering the Tower of Flame. It makes sense that A Heide Knight would be a Guardian of such a place and that it would be held sacred given the nature of Fire in Dark Souls.
